MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  White House Counselor Kellyanne Conway joins me now.  Kellyanne, good to see you tonight.  Thank you for being with us.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR:  Hi, Martha.

MACCALLUM:  Hi.  So we just played that piece of sound from the president saying that it is -- it’s like a spy within the White House.  Do you believe that the whistleblower is a spy?  Does the White House look at him or her that way?

CONWAY:  Well, the whistleblower is someone who does not have firsthand knowledge of what happened, got that from a few other people.  And then filed this --

MACCALLUM:  Right.  What about those other people?  Do you consider them to be spies in the White House?

CONWAY:  I don’t consider them to be spies.  But anybody who leaks conversations that are classified who are of national security sensitivity ought not to be working in the government, whoever you are.  

And I hope you’re watching, whoever you are.  Because you had the public’s trust and you’re a public servant entrusted with top secret and confidential information.

But this whistleblower complaint is really blowhard more than whistleblower in my view, Martha.  Because it was referred to the OLC, which said, look, this is a routine diplomatic phone call between President Trump and the Ukrainian president.

It was not a, quote, intelligence activity.  Their criminal division said there was no campaign finance violation.  And now the whole world can judge for themselves --

MACCALLUM:  All right.  Well, let me ask you about that then.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY:  Because the president went and released the whole thing.

MACCALLUM:  Because then -- then why would it be that this transcript -- if that’s the case, if it -- if it was so innocuous, why would it be put into lockdown to this code-level security rather than just putting it in -- in the typical place, in the White House, to be kept as a transcript?

CONWAY:  Well, I saw some people today from other administrations say it’s not -- it may be highly unusual but it’s not not done to move certain documents into another system.  But I’m not part of what the NSC or the White House situation room does with.

I will tell you that I had read the transcript and now everybody has read the transcript.  President Trump has continued his democratization of information, where he just -- whether it was through his social media platforms, through his press reveals (ph), and now through releasing the entire transcript of this phone call.

And let me tell all the viewers what’s not in that transcript.  No mention of the 2020 presidential race.  No mention of aid to Ukraine.  No mention of Joe Biden as some worthy political opponent.

Give me a break.  We don’t need Ukraine’s -- we don’t need Ukraine to help beat Joe Biden or any of the rest of them any more than we needed Russia to beat Hillary Clinton.  These candidates are a disaster all their own.  They’re -- they self-emulate.  

But I saw people lying today, including Intel Chairman Adam Schiff -- began with this contrived fantasy conversation that he imagined between President Trump and the president of Ukraine.  That is crazy.

MACCALLUM:  Yes, we -- we’re actually going to -- we’re going to show that in a little while.  But I just want to --

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY:  We can’t have that.

MACCALLUM:  Can we just back up to -- to what you said just a moment ago?

CONWAY:  Yes.

MACCALLUM:  Because the president does talk about Joe Biden in the transcript and he talks about his business dealing with his son.  It’s kind of impossible to separate that from the Joe Biden who the president may well be running against in 2020, isn’t it?

CONWAY:  No, it’s not.  And here’s why.  The president is talking about the 2016 elections earlier.  He’s talking about CrowdStrike.  He’s saying this country -- the United States just went through this terrible thing.  As you know, Robert Mueller testified yesterday.

Disaster Mueller report -- disaster.  And we want to know (ph) -- we know Ukraine has some of the information.  He’s talking about the 2016 election.  And then he said -- and then he says Biden --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  Yes that’s clear.  But that’s a separate area than what I’m asking you about, just to be clear.

CONWAY:  Well, hold on, then he says -- I got documents here.

MACCALLUM:  That’s a separate area.

CONWAY:  Then he says -- then the president says Biden -- people are talking about Biden and his son.  

Guess what?  People were talking about Biden and his son.  Here’s CNN’s John King on May 12th.  Hunter Biden worked for a gas company in Ukraine, which is totally fair game.

Here’s ABC in -- on May -- in May.  Biden sidesteps questions about his son’s foreign business dealings, but promises ethics pledge.

MACCALLUM:  OK.

CONWAY:  The New York Times wrote about it May 1st.  The Hill newspaper wrote about it April 1st.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  Understood.  No, I’m not saying it’s not a story, Kellyanne.

CONWAY:  People were talking about Hunter Biden.

MACCALLUM:  And absolutely I -- I agree with you that that is a story and that is something that we have dug into and that will continue to be dug into.

My question is whether or not bringing it up -- because there’s a section of the transcript that clearly deals with 2016.  That’s more backward looking and, you know, is an investigation.  Him (ph) -- it appears that the president is asking, you know, can you dig into this for us.  We want to know what happened with regard to the origins of the Russia investigation.

But then it turns in the other part of the discussion to the question of Joe Biden.  And the president specifically states that he wants Rudy Giuliani to be one of the people, he also mentions Bill Barr, to -- to talk to them about that.

Now Rudy Giuliani is his personal attorney.  So that’s not the person that you would designate, I would imagine, if you were talking about sort of a country-to-country investigation into something.  

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  You know, I would imagine that would be Bill Barr.  Why is Rudy Giuliani part of the equation, I guess, is -- is my question.

CONWAY:  Well, a few things.  I’ll let Rudy answer questions about his involvement but a few things here.  The entire conversation was about two main things.  Congratulations for winning the presidential election and then parliamentary election and corruption.

If you go back and you read the entire transcript as I did previously and as I did again this week when the whole world did, Martha, they’re talking about draining the swamp.  President Trump doesn’t say that.  The Ukrainian president says, hey, we learned from you and I ran successfully on draining the swamp.

And they’re talking about corruption.  And so, in that context, the president says look at -- my people are, quote, talking about Biden.  

They’re talking about Biden bragging in front of the Council on Foreign Relations on January 23rd, 2018.  Mr. Big Shot, I told them I’ve only got six more hours on the ground here.  You better fire that prosecutor or we’re going to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees to Ukraine that lives in the shadow of Russia.  

Earlier in the call -- in fact, on page one of the call they are talking about how the aid that the -- the aid coming from France and Germany is not enough.  The Ukrainian president is critical of Macron and Merkel for not helping.

MACCALLUM:  Yes.  That’s understandable.  I mean, I think all of that is very --

CONWAY:  But that’s what -- that was a discussion of aid, not withholding of aid.  The Ukrainian president never said, oh, please give us aid.  He said I’m going to buy more javelins.  And separately he says Merkel and Macron are not doing enough for me --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  No that (inaudible) understandable and we pointed that out several times, you know, in terms of the -- in terms of the reason.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY:  This president has done more on Russian sanctions than they have.  He made that clear.

MACCALLUM:  I -- I think that -- you know I think it’s difficult for a lot of people who read it -- and you know, I think most of us have read it many times at this point -- to completely separate the fact that Joe Biden is -- is running for president in the 2020 election that -- that the president’s interest in that is completely separate from that.

But -- but if that’s -- that’s argument --

CONWAY:  No, I think it’s -- I think that’s totally unfair.  And -- and -- and by the way, Joe Biden is ruining Joe Biden.  He wants you to turn on your record player, your leg warmers, take your pet rock around the corner for a walk, get your Sony Walkman.  I mean, this guy is so out-of-touch and now his policies are so out of the mainstream.

And this president never once says help me with Joe Biden because I’m worried about running against him for president.

MACCALLUM:  No, he doesn’t say that, definitely not (ph).  But here’s what he said back on June 13th when he talked to George Stephanopoulos, watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  If somebody called from a country -- Norway -- we have information on your opponent.

Oh?  I think I’d want to hear it.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST:  You want that kind of interference in our elections?

TRUMP:  It’s not an interference.  They have information.  I think I’d take it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM:  So -- I mean, he said very clearly there that he doesn’t have any problem with, you know, discussing the election or issues related to the election with -- with other countries.  

So I mean, you know, he may just stand by that and still feel that way today.  Is that the case?

CONWAY:  But -- but we don’t know that the information on said person has anything to do with the elections.  The information may have to do with corruption in that country.  

Nobody understands how Hunter Biden, but for his father being the sitting vice president, got these enormous contracts and the millions and millions of dollars.  

Does he have a hidden skill set none of us can see obviously?  Because we know what he’s been in the news for over the last five years, Martha, anybody can go look it up.  It certainly isn’t for his savvy in the energy company, the state-run energy company on which he sat on the board.

And if -- if people are criticizing me for raising this -- ABC, you raised it -- The Hill, The New York Times, CNN.  Those are just the four I was able to pull up.  I’m sure Fox News covered it because it’s relevant.  

It’s relevant when you got a president who got here on draining the swamp, on anti-corruption it is relevant to say that in the last administration the sitting vice president’s son was taking money from a government-run energy company whose father, as sitting vice president, threatened to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees in his official capacity.  That’s a disgrace.  That is the swamp.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  I don’t think that -- you know, I think there’s a few people out there who don’t think that’s a relevant question.  I think most people do think it’s a relevant question and that it will continue to be investigated and probably --

CONWAY:  And none of this is impeachable, is it though?

MACCALLUM:  -- the Ukrainian government has investigated it.  And I think that there needs to be, you know, a more thorough investigation into -- into --

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY:  And none of this is impeachable though, Martha.  What were they doing today?  Why can’t Adam Schiff question the acting director of the DNI behind closed doors like the Senate did today?  Why everything has to be preening and screening in front of the cameras all the time.  It’s really unfair.

MACCALLUM:  Well, I think you know the answer to that.

CONWAY:  Well, it’s really unfair to the country.  He lied to America today by saying the president was digging up dirt on a political opponent.  He imagined a conversation, he was abusive --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  Well, there’s going to be -- no, we’re going to play the imagined conversation in just -- in just a moment.

CONWAY:  And there’s no impeachment.

MACCALLUM:  But, you know -- I mean the -- it’s clear that there are questions raised here and that they’re going to continue to be investigated and dug into on all sides as me forward in this -- in all of this --

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY:  Well, just because you don’t like the president, you don’t vote for him, you have no idea how to beat him next time, that’s not high crimes and misdemeanor.  That’s just hate and that’s just a lack of political savvy.

MACCALLUM:  Right.

CONWAY:  And this country deserves a fully functioning democracy, where they’re voting on drug pricing infrastructure where they’re keeping this economy humming along.